Feedback problems on stage with my square neck Dobro. Any thoughts?

[William Conley]

Hi all Dobro players. I have a Regal square neck with a pickup installed by Paul Beard. I play in a band with drums, Martin guitar into a Fishman Loudbox an electric bass.
I went into the board with my Dobro. I was going into a NUX Stageman pre-amp with a feedback/notch knob and then into the board. I wanted to be able to control my own volume and reverb with the NUX.
Bass and guitar were not mic ed; just at the volume those players wanted.
There was a sound board that was giving us vocals in the monitors. My Dobro was also coming back in the monitors.
Soundcheck seemed fine but a few songs into the set, my Dobro started feeding back almost uncontrollably.
I kept turning down the NUX but then couldn't hear myself well and the soundboard said they were turning down my monitor too,
It didn't get better through the entire set.

Anyway, my theory is that the stage volume was so loud with loud acoustic guitar and loud electric bass that it was feeding into my dobro, causing the feedback.
Any ideas from you all about what the problem is and how to fix?
Thanks for any help you may have to offer.

[Howard Parker]

I'm a bit confused with your setup. Exactly what is the signal path from the dobro to the sound board? Unbalanced (instrument) level or balanced (XLR) from a d.i.??

Is this the Fishman NASHVILLE pickup?

In general. The sound man should be dealing with levels, not you.

My own setup looks like:

pickup==>Fishman Aura==> effects===> boost ==> D.I. ===>balanced out to board

I can play at "stupid" volumes but, it's really stage/room dependent. Proximity of mics, monitors and front of house . Once I give a feed to the sound dude it's their responsibility.

[Fred Treece]

Proximity of mics, monitors and front of house . Once I give a feed to the sound dude it's their responsibility.

Agree with sentence #1 as possible cause of feedback issues.

Sentence #2 is more nuanced. It assumes you have provided a workable signal to the board.

Confirm that you are going straight to the board out of the XLR on the NUX. Work that notch filter to find the frequency of the feedback. Roll back your gain to give the sound guy some headroom.

When feedback is absent from soundcheck, it doesn’t just magically appear during mid-show. Something has changed in the signal you are providing or the way it has been manipulated at the board.

My best advice is to do your sound check at gig level, or better yet, slightly louder. Make sure to do a monitors-only check. An empty house with the mains on is not what you’ll be hearing with a full house.

Addressing a different aspect of your post - This is not the setup to have control of your stage sound. As Howard also said, once you decide on settings for the NUX, that is what the sound engineer will be working with, and you have to ask for any changes, or let the board operator know you are making them on stage. If you change your gain or EQ, it will change at front of house and monitor. It will also piss off the sound guy if you don’t tell him, and possibly overload your channel and cause distortion or feedback or both.

To get full control over your stage sound, you need your own powered speaker or your own IEM system controller. That leaves the sound guy only the front of house to worry about.

Good luck.

[Steven Wilson]

My stage experience is limited, but most of the venues I have performed at do not have an experienced sound person or one that has experience with a resonator guitar. In addition to the issues mentioned above, I concluded that stage monitors can be part of the problem and we purchased in-ear monitors. These cost about $200/set and consist of high fi earbuds wired into blue tooth receiver worn on your belt. The receiver takes signal from the sound board through a transmitter that plugs into the monitor-out jack. I grew to like the system, and I think it helped with feedback.

Another possible factor is if you are using a vocal mic. Normally that is positioned right above your instrument and it could be a problem. Possible solutions are to aim your resonator partially forward rather than straight up, or don't play when you are using the mic (not always possible....)

[Howard Parker]

I'll also add that if it's a single, monitor mix for everyone it might well be feeding back through a vocal mic.

There are many variables.

Agree with Fred that ANY change you make on stage after a sound check, well, all bets are off.

h

[D Schubert]

I haven't played a lot of loud stage situations with my Dobro, but I always have fewer feedback problems if I bring my own signal chain and amp, and let the sound tech take an XLR signal from the amp, or place a microphone in front of it. Resonator guitars are more difficult on stage, I think, because the cone is designed to pick up and amplify everything it "hears" -- including adjacent instruments and vocals.

[Gary Meixner]

William,

From your description I am not surprised you had the trouble that you did. Everyone was doing there own thing delievering the sound tech only a portion of the mix and giving them only limited control over the front of the house or stage monitors. This approach might work when playing all electric instruments and utilizing the PA for vocals only, but your situation with acoustic instruments just created mutiple sources for feedback to be generated. I wouldnt be too quick to blame your dobro or signal chain, it sounds to me like you were doing a resonably good job of delivring the sound tech a signal they could work with. You probably had an unruley stage sound with no global control. It would have helped for the bass and guitar to turn down, using their amps only as personal monitors. They could then send a balanced signal out to the mix board and let the sound tech take control.

Gary

[Michael Kiese]

Your current COA (course of action) is to plug your dobro straight to board, and then rely upon a stage monitor with all the sources mixed to your personal monitor.

Here's a different COA which may mitigate your issue:

Use a small amp with a line out what is post EQ, but pre effects. This way, you give a personally EQ'd Dobro signal to the board, without any effects like reverb.

This option ensures that through your personal amplifier, YOU ALWAYS hear exactly what you want your Dobro to sound like, which is essential for your performance. Then you send a clean XLR signal to the board, which makes the soundman happy. Less work for him.

THEN you can also have a stage monitor with all the other instruments/vocals on stage, but NONE of your dobro gets sent to that monitor mix.

The end result: You hear your instrument through your amp always exactly as you want to hear it. The stage monitor allows you to hear the rest of the band.

That may mitigate issues in the future. There are ALWAYS tradeoffs, but being able to hear yourself at all times and control your own volume is always the most important thing.

Put your amp on stage facing you, away from the audience. Just like how you would practice in your bedroom or at a music store. That should keep the soundman happy because you're not messing with what the audience hears, which is the soundman's job.

Good luck and enjoy!

[Jonathan Scherer]

For what it is worth= My dobro signal chain goes, Tuner, Fishman JD Aura pedal, Fishman ToneDeq, XLR out from ToneDeq to mixing board.

Our band gets loud on stage sometimes, but I can mostly hear the dobro through a wedge monitor, when our soundguy
does it right.

On lapsteel, I go direct XLR to the board from a V8 Octal pre amp and also to a personal monitor behind me. The lapsteel is not loud enough in the monitor for me to hear good, (we have a loud keyboard player), so I need the personal speaker for lapsteel.

Only time I get feedback on dobro is when our soundguy gets confused between lapsteel and dobro, and he maxes out the dobro volume on the board, instead of raising the volume on lapsteel.

Closest mic's are 8' away from me.

J

[Lee Rider]

Our band had gotten away from wedges in front, now use side fills that solved quite a few problems. Wedges are fine for solid body instruments but I have found that they really play hell with amplified acoustic instruments.

[Paul Seager]

I read this with interest as I have my first gig on Dobro next week. I don't have a pick-up, will use a SM57 close to between cone and sound-hole. They'll be other musicians, bass (thru amp) and of course guitar, mando, fiddle, (all with pickups) and vocals, going through my desk. I will be my own sound guy - A&H desk and Bose compact column. Thankfully the gig is too small for monitors. But I'm nervous!

Two recent bluegrass-oriented workshops offered short electives on live sound. At both, I've explained the scenario as above and three tips I've gleaned are:

1. When feedback occurs ANYWHERE, treat it as a "too loud" problem first and pull back the master faders. Then reduce any stage volume (e.g., amps)
2. The Dobro cone works as a mic and a speaker so isolate as much as possible from a bass or indeed any amp.
3. Desk EQ is best used subtractively, avoid boosting.

I'm still nervous!

[Michael Kiese]

I read this with interest as I have my first gig on Dobro next week. I don't have a pick-up, will use a SM57 close to between cone and sound-hole. They'll be other musicians, bass (thru amp) and of course guitar, mando, fiddle, (all with pickups) and vocals, going through my desk. I will be my own sound guy - A&H desk and Bose compact column. Thankfully the gig is too small for monitors. But I'm nervous!

Two recent bluegrass-oriented workshops offered short electives on live sound. At both, I've explained the scenario as above and three tips I've gleaned are:

1. When feedback occurs ANYWHERE, treat it as a "too loud" problem first and pull back the master faders. Then reduce any stage volume (e.g., amps)
2. The Dobro cone works as a mic and a speaker so isolate as much as possible from a bass or indeed any amp.
3. Desk EQ is best used subtractively, avoid boosting.

I'm still nervous!

Aloha Paul,

Mic'ing your Dobro with an SM57 is probably a good way to go.

That said, consider buying a DPA 4099 instrument mic. They are AMAZING. You can mic anything with them, flute, violin, guitar, cello, upright bass, grand piano, saxophone, etc, and they perform really well. The 4099 has multiple instrument mounts that allow you to connect it to just about any instrument.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... uitar-clip

It's a little expensive, but well worth it. And you don't have to use it for just dobro. Like I mentioned, they are great for any instrument so you can get a lot of mileage out of it. I have a few DPA mics, and they are top notch. Every bit as good as a neumann, or any other top microphone brand. I have a few neumanns too just to give them some love.

The reason why I mention and recommend the 4099 to you is you can mount it directly on your dobro, so you can be more free with your playing and maintain perfect mic placement at all times.

I'm guessing the SM57 is probably mounted on a mic stand with a boom. It'll do the job, sure, but maintaining mic placement will be a pain unless you figure out a way to mount a 57 directly to your dobro. But if you did that, it'd probably be so big that it would get in your way.

Enjoy!

[Paul Seager]

I held off replying to Micheal's comment because I was hoping that others would respond to William's original thread.

I'm aware of DPA 4099 and as an upright bassman and sometimes guitarist, it's versatility appeals. I've also listed the relatively new Neumann MCM 114 as a possible solution. Despite their high cost, I believe either are a better deal than a Fishman pickup given, the cost of acquisition, installation and the fact (I am told), the Fishman sound characterless without an Aura or similar processor. Stack that all up and one is easily over 700 €/$! And there's the main issue for me; my RK Leadbetter cost under 600!

Moving about is not an issue. I am the vocalist and therefore stay near my mike-stand on which I mount a second mini-boom for the SM57. Plus, I play very small bars!
I am hoping that these constraints will make sound management far easier.

[Michael Kiese]

I held off replying to Micheal's comment because I was hoping that others would respond to William's original thread.

I'm aware of DPA 4099 and as an upright bassman and sometimes guitarist, it's versatility appeals. I've also listed the relatively new Neumann MCM 114 as a possible solution. Despite their high cost, I believe either are a better deal than a Fishman pickup given, the cost of acquisition, installation and the fact (I am told), the Fishman sound characterless without an Aura or similar processor. Stack that all up and one is easily over 700 €/$! And there's the main issue for me; my RK Leadbetter cost under 600!

Moving about is not an issue. I am the vocalist and therefore stay near my mike-stand on which I mount a second mini-boom for the SM57. Plus, I play very small bars!
I am hoping that these constraints will make sound management far easier.

My apologies to the group for going off thread topic.

Paul - I can't recommend the DPA 4099 highly enough. If you invested in one, you won't be sorry. The best thing is that DPA made lots of custom bespoke mounts for various instruments that all can be purchased separately. They even have the industries best and only flute mount, which makes mounting a flute without damaging it a breeze.

You could buy an Upright bass mount for when you play upright, and use the guitar mount for both your dobro and guitar playing.

I agree with you that either the Neumann or the DPA is a better option than installing a Fishman pickup.

No acoustic pickup ever sounds as good as just mic'ing the acoustic instrument with a great mic. Some pickups do come close though, and offer different colors/timbres that may be uniquely pleasing.

But as far as getting the true acoustic sound, mic'ing is the way to go.

Whatever you pick, I'm sure you'll do fine.

SM57 is always the fail safe. Ain't nothing wrong with that either. lol.

[Fred Treece]

I suppose there is some value in this side-thread, but as it applies to the OP, a surface-mounted mic or an SM57 on a stand will probably not address a feedback problem on a loud stage. I had a Gold Tone surface mic on my Dobro. It was great within a very limited volume range and was eventually rendered utterly useless for my purposes. Admittedly, it was not a high-end component, but it wasn’t cheap either. It’s now in some dust bin in a galaxy far far away.

[Howard Parker]

Last night's gig reminded me of this thread!

The joy of a great sounding gig.

Meetup with the venue SoundGal. What a pro.

Me -"Four vocals, 3 D.I.'s, 1 instrument mic and 1 bass cab."
SoundGal - "Gotcha covered!"

She did!! Terrific sound.

A great evening!

gbg2.jpg

[Mark Eaton]

William Conley has yet to return to this thread he started two weeks ago but if he ever does, we need to go back to square one.

Howard Parker asked in his first post if the pickup in question is the Fishman Nashville.

For all we know, William's Regal may have had a pickup installed by Paul Beard 18-20 years ago, prior to the release of the Nashville.

What if it is for example, the dreaded Fishman "donut" pickup that attaches to the tension screw inside the guitar underneath the cone?

If that were the case, then the pickup needs to be yanked out and you should start over. You can throw all kinds of effects at it and it will likely still not sound good along with being in a constant battle with feedback.

[William Conley]

Howard and everyone who responded,I was away for a week without internet access and now and just reading all the helpful replies. I'm new to using the forum for communication so bear with me if I send my replies incorrectly. I'm so grateful to all who took the time to help out with this.
Thanks so much for your replies and suggestions. The signal path is Dobro-The NUX pre amp- balanced out- to the board. I have used a Quilter preamp with a balanced out to the board and that has given me no feedback problems.
I have gone back to Howard's original question and the comment about it not being a Nashville pickup. I think that might be the case as Paul Beard DID install it more than 15 years ago. Some of my Dobro playing friends have asked me what kind of pickup is on my resonator and I've been ignorant to answer.
There's a lot to think/work through with all the great "feedback" people have offered.
Again, I'm so grateful to have the forum as a resource for issues like this. Thank you to all for your suggestions.
Bill Conley

[Mark Eaton]

Bill Conley, here is how you can identify if it's a Fishman Nashville pickup. Look under the palm rest from the tail end of the guitar, and if you see a wire coming out of each side toward the edge of the guitar, then that is what you have. If you don't see these wires, then it's some other kind of pickup.

The original version which hit the market around 2009 is the one below in the following post that had a metal "bar" sandwiched in the middle. Many of these worked just fine while others had issues with uneven sound transfer when plugged in. Players owning high end resonators sometimes complained that the unplugged acoustic sound wasn't as pleasing as what they had for inserts prior to adding the pickup.

in 2013 Fishman redesigned the Nashville pickup. They didn't give it a new name, like "Version 2.0" - something you might you see in the software industry, they just quietly made the change. They were able to eliminate the metal bar in the middle so that only a very thin piezo electric strip is "sandwiched" between the cap and the base. This is what I have in my main dobro (a Clinesmith), and it accomplished two things:
1. Better sound transfer when plugged in and
2. Improved sound when playing unplugged in comparison to the original version with the metal bar in the middle.

The bottom line is that you can throw all kinds of good gear into the signal chain, but if it's a crappy pickup like for example the Fishman "Classic" aka "donut" pickup which was around many years prior to the Nashville, it attaches to the tension screw inside the guitar underneath the resonator cone, you're fighting an uphill battle because it's the weak link in the system.

[Mark Eaton]

The bottom photo is the original Fishman Nashville pickup which had the metal bar “sandwiched” in the middle. The top photo is the improved version which came out in 2013.

You can see the wires coming out the sides. If these are not visible under the palm rest, then you do not have the Nashville pickup in your guitar.

[William Conley]

Mark,
Thanks for the clarity of your description and the diagram to show the difference. I'm excited now to check out what I have and update if that is what appears to be needed. One other thing I've noticed that you or others may want to comment on.
I have a Fishman Loudbox Mini that pairs beautifully with my Dobro. I think the sound is what I expect a Dobro to sound like when I plug into that Loudbox.
On only one occasion have I had a gig where the soundman said he would take the balanced out from the Loudbox into the board. I recall no problems from that time
but when I use that amp with the current band set up as described in my initial post, (only vocals going through the board) people in the audience say, "can't hear the Dobro". That's why I decided to find a way to go directly into the board.

[William Conley]

Mark,
Thanks for the clarity of your description and the diagram to show the difference. I'm excited now to check out what I have and update if that is what appears to be needed. One other thing I've noticed that you or others may want to comment on.
I have a Fishman Loudbox Mini that pairs beautifully with my Dobro. I think the sound is what I expect a Dobro to sound like when I plug into that Loudbox.
On only one occasion have I had a gig where the soundman said he would take the balanced out from the Loudbox into the board. I recall no problems from that time
but when I use that amp with the current band set up as described in my initial post, (only vocals going through the board) people in the audience say, "can't hear the Dobro". That's why I decided to find a way to go directly into the board.

[Lloyd Graves]

I'm not the most gear-savvy person, so take this with a grain of salt:

Loudboxes sound great, but the minis are... mini. Could it be, premarital, that your amp doesn't have the headroom needed for your venue size. What are other folks in the band using?



Edit: I have really enjoyed all the great information offered in this thread, by the way. I have long felt that music camps and festivals should offer workshops on sound reinforcement for acoustic instruments.